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Jefre 2000 - 2004-02-04 21:18:40
Asking "why do critics launch into long-winded attempts to explain why people like particular music?" is rather like asking "why is water wet?": it's just what they do! There'd be nothing to write about if critics only said, "I like this! Maybe you will, maybe you won't." That said, I think the underlying issue is the curious phenomenon that "white hipsters" feel there's just something wrong about saying, outright, "I don't like hip-hop" - even if they don't. And that "something wrong" is surely connected to race...and if nothing else, Tris has guts to address it in a pretty open way. It would be nice if people could just enjoy the music, or create music, w/o worrying about someone claiming they're not [X] enough, or that they're making too big a play towards a [Y] audience...but so long as music's created in the world, those questions will come up. At least, they will for people who think like critics...
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wombat - 2004-02-05 00:23:00
It seems like the same topic is coming up again, (PoMo crit) it's like nobody wants to be caught just liking something, everyone has to be hip.Meaning aware of the cultural significance, savvy to how other people and groups will react. that's a job for some poor pr people, it is not a condition to be greatly desired. And maybe it's like asking, "do we really need so much water?" (think Jamestown).
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tris mccall - 2004-02-05 07:29:11
in this case, it was impossible not to; the numbers were too overwhelming not to talk about them. i have never seen a single dominate our poll the way "hey ya!" did. i gave some of the stats on the critics poll singles page, but in case your readers don't know, "hey ya!" got listed on 46 of 65 ballots. what?!?! this song is scratching a very deep itch. now, nobody's arguing that "hey ya!" isn't a good song, or that the outkast aren't a great group. but is "hey ya!!" really four times better than the number two single? is "hey ya!" better that the numbers two through four single put together? more pertinently, is "hey ya!" *so* much better than "way you move" that it merits 46 mentions while patton's single gets 2? (one of them mine?) no, it's not. there's at least some tokenism at work here. i also felt compelled to mention it at length because *so* many of my respondents (even those who voted for "hey ya!") chipped in with guilty/awkward/embarrassed/complicit comments this year about white hipster fetishization of outkast. it's on people's minds, and i couldn't just ignore that. in general, i am more interested in exploring why people listen to what they listen to than whether or not what they listen to is decent. there are some very obvious reasons why outkast works on white hipsters with what i call "shins values". examining those reasons gives us some insight into the race politics of the demimonde (williamsburg and north jersey) that voted in this poll, a demimonde that's close to 100% white. thanks for voting and writing! tris mccall *p.s. the most telling thing: at least half of the 46 people who voted for "hey ya!" also voted for andre benjamin for "best rapper". even though he doesn't rap at all this year. so an enormous flock of birds are being killed by one stone: people get to feel like they listen to rap by listening to a rap song that isn't, upon examination, rap. nor is the rapper rapping. more on this in today's reflections. i'm not an exception here. i like all of the emcees that white people like. cee-lo, outkast, native tongues, missy elliott, dr. dre. i, too, was tempted to vote for andre for "best rapper". i respond in the exact way that you'd expect a white hipster to respond.
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Paula - 2004-02-05 10:25:25
Great comments, all.

I'm going to address the most crucial aspects of each:

but so long as music's created in the world, those questions will come up. At least, they will for people who think like critics...

True, Jeff, and I realize that criticism is a sport unto itself that has little to do with music qua music. I am the last person who should dismiss cogitatin' about the details of life...it's just that I so often feel depressed, diminished, even belittled--on behalf of myself as a music listener and on behalf of the poor sod whose music is being dissected--after reading any kind of serious music criticism.

"You only like this because you're a guilty white hipster" seems to punish everyone, musician and listener both, and destroy whatever innocent joy there is in the creation of music.

guilty/awkward/embarrassed/complicit

This is the heart of what bugs me, I think. Why the neuroses? Isn't music meant to elevate us and spare us from that?

I'm a simple lass from the lowlands. Music is what makes life on this planet tolerable for me. It is the one area where I don't have to overthink anything, or justify myself. It is a physical phenomenon that glows with the possibility of the metaphysical. I would like to preserve this one area of my experience from those who want to explain everything in terms of sociology.

And maybe it's like asking, "do we really need so much water?"

Ha! That is a comeback for the ages!
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me again - 2004-02-05 19:28:10
Paula: about your comments on music, overthinking, and "the possibility of the metaphysical": See, for me, it's a both/and. I don't have a problem loving something intensely, being moved by it in ways I can't explain...and then turning around and *trying* to explain it. But I do know that for a lot of people, there's something about that intuitive, emotive, even spiritual response that feels itself sullied at the touch of cold, hard analysis. For me, analysis is another mode of emotionality, actually: sometimes, certain emotive effects can be achieved through the purposeful removal of affect: Kraftwerk sometimes, or that chapter in Joyce's Ulysses, rendered in the mode of a Scholastic dialogue, wherein Leopold Bloom discovers Molly's infidelity. Way back in September, I wrote about Tom Verlaine's "The Scientist Writes a Letter," which sort of enacts these differences/distinctions and brings pathos to the situation of those who can verbalize only in analytic mode.
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tris mccall - 2004-02-05 21:09:41
race politics is a can of worms that's never too pleasant to open. but the relative anonymity of the critics poll allows people to say things they wouldn't say in public, or cop to things they wouldn't cop to if their mom or their favorite teacher were listening. i look at the discomfort people felt while voting for outkast as salutary: a tacit recognition that the subcultures that so many of our voters inhabit (me too) are segregated. we can do a sold-out show at maxwell's with four popular and mutually supportive local bands, and not a single black or latino person will walk through the door. hoboken is an integrated town. night after night of this and you will start to notice. it's become difficult to discuss pop music without also talking about identity politics. there are radio stations you can listen to all day and never hear a female voice. there are radio stations as segregated as selma in 1953. on other stations, the entire playlist is black, except for eminem. there are clubs in the city where you'll never see a face of color, and others where you feel you're the token white boy upon entry. there are very few sites of cultural integration and cross-pollination in pop music culture. in indie rock culture i inhabit, there are almost none. that's the reason for our awkwardness: if we're inclined to vote for outkast along with nine other records that have nothing to do with hip-hop, it's hard not to feel like it's our tokenism at work.
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Paula - 2004-02-06 10:57:25
cultural integration and cross-pollination in pop music culture...it's hard not to feel like it's our tokenism at work. [Tris]

Well, is Outkast's popularity "tokenism" or is it the "cross-pollination" that you seem to endorse? I just don't see a problem.

...sullied at the touch of cold, hard analysis [Jeff]

I would really like to respond to this line, but this is a family place.
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tris mccall - 2004-02-07 10:11:28
<<>> outkast's popularity (or, really, "hey ya's" popularity) among hipsters is definitely not an example of cultural cross-pollination. this isn't 88 at s.o.b.'s, white kids with p.e. t-shirts cramming to understand hip-hop. this is scenes like last night at uncle joe's: a long dj set of indie rock with "hey ya!" thrown in there between rye coalition, hong kong and the lilys. two hundred records from one subculture and one record from another -- the very definition of tokenism. everybody at the club reacts when "hey ya!" comes on; it's a fascinating reaction, but it's also a complex reaction. let me break it down further, and then if you still don't see the problem, it's my fault, not yours: the white hipster reaction when the deejay at uncle joe's drops "hey ya!" into the mix, by tris mccall. part 1 -- pure enjoyment. "damn, it's 'hey ya!', what a great song this is, this beat is slamming! 'shake it like a polaroid picture', etc.!" part two -- self-congratulation. "i don't just know and enjoy records by people who look and think like me. i am more broadminded than that, i like 'hey ya!' as i groove to this record, i am feeling good because it is a good song, but i am *also* feeling good because my enjoyment of it is suggestive of my tolerance and multiculturalism. my knowledge of hip-hop tells me so." part 3 -- dawning recognition. "hey, wait a second. i don't actually *have* any knowledge of hip-hop. i don't go to hip-hop clubs or rap events, and i don't really buy hip-hop records. i know this one and the one about how the milkshake brings the boys to the yard. damn, i can sing every word on *fever to tell* but i don't know what andre is saying in the verses. wait another second, i don't even know what 'hey ya'! is about -- i thought this was a zany party song, but as i listen closer, it's not happy and bouncy sentiment at all. that whole bit about how i was broadminded and multicultural; jeez, that feels a little embarrasing now." part 4 -- dawning cultural recognition. "everybody around me singing this song is white. all the bands that played tonight were white. the deejay is white, the clubowner is white, the bartenders are white, the girl i'm flirting with is white. at the restaurant i went to tonight, almost everybody was white. tomorrow night i will go to the mercury lounge, and all the bands will be white, and the crowd will be almost entirely white, and those people will go home and spin albums from to record collections that consist of white artists. and outkast. jeez, how did that get in there? there's got to be something bigger at work than just the quality of the music." as i looked around at the crowd last night at joe's, i could see people at all four stages of this process. some people spent the whole song at stage one, danced and had a good time, and went on to the next hundred indie rock songs and thought nothing of it. it troubled their minds not at all. i saw lots of other people at stage two, ostentatiously displaying love for the outkast as if it was proof of their great broadmindedness. others (some of whom were embarrassed friends of those at stage two) were definitely at stage three. and a few select hipsters had stage four written all over their faces. and while this scene was going down at joe's, similar scenes were happening at maxwell's, at greenpoint tavern, at pianos, at hipster bars and indie rock gatherings all over the country. in our critics poll, we get lots of responses from people who are regulars at stage four, and that accounts for the level of anxiety that some felt when voting for 'hey ya'. but in this case, you don't have to push too hard to get there: observe the crowd the next time you're in a indie rock subculture hangout and 'hey ya!' comes on, and watch the reaction. hell, you'll probably have an opportunity tonight! i can break down what i see to be the reason outkast is so quickly assimilated to already extant structures of white tokenism, but i did that a bit on the website, and i have written plenty already. love and kisses from this side of the hudson, little tris. ps, in streamlining the process, i left out the worst bit, which is at around three and a half. there's an out clause for those who don't want to think about race when they're having a good time at the club, and who does? they say, well, outkast is in this mix with the hong kong, interpol, and rye coalition because of merit -- it merits inclusion because it is "good". other rap is not here because it's "not good"; it doesn't warrant inclusion into our canon of *quality sounds*. this one song is allowed admission to the university of our subculture because of its intrinsic qualities, the others of its kind do not show that sort of promise or merit that inclusion. if more rap was "good", like the wonderful experimental outkast, we would let more of it into the country club. this is the sort of attitude that gets bricks thrown through people's windows, and while i regret every brick and every smashed window, it's not like i don't understand.
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Paula - 2004-02-07 11:07:47
self-congratulation

This is where you lose me, Tris.

I had a great spiritual teacher once who used to put me through this process everytime I made a blanket statement or a mind-reading judgment about someone else.

First, she'd congratulate me for being human, because all humans judge others, it's inevitable. Then she'd ask me the following four questions:

1. Is it true?

2. Can you absolutely know this to be true?

3. How do you react when you think that thought?

4. Who would you be without the thought?

And then she'd have me do a "turnaround", meaning investigating the judgment from all angles to make sure that all the shadows and paradoxes feeding the judgment were aired.

Maybe she'd have me try on the sentence "White hipsters who like Outkast AREN'T self-congratulatory...." or "*I* am self-congratulatory..."...Or to maybe investigate the core belief behind the original statement: "It is bad to be self-congratulatory"....So maybe we'd try on the belief "It is good to be self-congratulatory...Being self-congratulatory is neither good nor bad...being self-congratulatory is not the real problem..." etc.

So my first question to you would be, "Can you really know that ALL the white folks who like Outkast are self-congratulatory?"

And that just addresses the first of your judgments.

If I had time, and if my home computer were working (I'm using a library computer today), I'd explore every statement in your post, starting with the judgment that not liking rap music is tantamount to racism...or that a bunch of skinny white guys in a club are the ultimate arbiters of cultural norms...or that rap artists are somehow being marginalized because 20-somethings in Williamsburg don't buy their albums...

I wonder how you feel about black people who don't listen to rap music? Or women who don't attend Lilith Fair?
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Hey! Is that an open can of worms? - 2004-02-07 11:24:49
Thing is, while it's undoubtedly true (following Paula's last remark) that plenty of the people Tris observed were not thinking what Tris said he was thinking, it's a reasonable generalization - given large-scale cultural patterns of race & identity blah-blah-blah - that some of them were. It's possible, of course, that plenty of people like "Hey Ya!" and don't really think of it as being by a hip-hop artist, being by a black artist, etc. etc. But ultimately, I can't endorse that attitude...because if it were more common, it wouldn't *be* the only record by a black artist played amongst Rye Coalition, Lilys, et al. Now, one way out of this might be to say, "look, it's just the music: Tris outlined what he calls 'a Shins aesthetic' prevalent among white hipsters, and 'Hey Ya!' fits that aesthetic more closely than most hip-hop records." That might be a more plausible argument if instead of "Hey Ya!" it were a song by, say, The Negro Problem...since "Hey Ya!" - even if does fit in w/ASAPAWH - also is clearly a record in the African-American musical tradition, even if it's also Shinsly in some ways. Plenty of Negro Problem songs would be able to, uh, pass for white among listeners who don't know any better. The real problem, I think, underlying all this, is the incredible segregation of musical and radio formats. I mean, I don't actually listen to top 40 radio...but the impression I get is that the station that plays "Hey Ya!" is not going to be the station that plays Britney is not going to be the station that plays [insert whatever nu-metal act white suburban teens dig now] - and none of those stations are going to also play, say, AM radio hits from the '60s and/or AOR songs from the '70s and '80s. Thing is, I'm guessing more hip-hop heads know records by Lilys than Lilys fans know hip-hop records. So whose fault is this divide, then? It seems to me that Paula wants to hold out for individual music listeners listening on their own - whereas Tris cannot help but put that listening in a cultural context. And that, probably, is why Tris is a critic and Paula isn't ;)
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Paula - 2004-02-11 06:55:08
So whose fault is this divide, then? Does it have to be somebody's "fault"? And who's this mysterious "somebody" in this grand conspiracy to keep Lily's fans (help me out here, is this code for white people? for young white males? for college-educated people? I don't know, because I don't know the Lilys ) from listening to hip-hop? Further, is anyone here really suggesting that hip-hop (and by that I mean the entire hip-hop culture, not just rap music) is marginalized and despised? Is it not the most influential force in our art and music right now? Hilary Duff raps on her album, for pete's sake. If someone's suggesting that there's a problem because a certain small demographic of Shins- and Lilys-listeners don't like rap music, well, I can't get too outraged about that. I'll say one more time for the record, that Outkast's presence on so many year-end lists could be a cause for celebration, or "hey, look!" or mild surprise and delight, or indifference, but I don't know where the derision and worry come from, and nobody's argument so far has convinced me that I should be worried about this.
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uh, don't look now, they're turning... - 2004-02-11 10:32:37
I interpreted the whole thing as being a lament that there wasn't more hip-hop in the poll results; that people weren't using their interest in Outkast to explore hip-hop further; and that for some of those people, liking Outkast was sort of a gesture of hipness rather than a genuine appreciation of what Outkast is doing. I know: that's not only reading into what Tris wrote, it's reading into what people think. But flip it around: people do all kinds of things to signify status: why should a hip-hop record be any different?

In the end, I think the "problem" is that Tris wishes more white hipsters would deeply explore hip-hop rather than scratch the most readily available surface. I think what bugs him is the way that that surface-scratching can be uncomfortably reminiscent of a certain kind of cultural poaching, wherein elements of a culture are made into badges that use a living, breathing culture as nothing more than a token of awareness. It would be as if someone were constantly invoking their friendship with you, Paula Carino, Rock Star, to establish their coolness: mightn't you question at least a little bit the sincerity of their friendship...if their contact with you was in very small proportion relative to their namechecking you?

(oh: Lilys in this case just means "indie rock band beloved primarily by white hipsters." But you should buy their CDs anyway ;)
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Joe - 2004-02-12 02:33:47
Tris, I love "Hey Ya". I think it's one of the best singles I've heard in years. That it's hip-hop is, to me, beside the point. That is, I don't like it because it's "the one hip-hop song I like". I like it because it's damn catchy (esp. that keyboard hook in the chorus!), which is, I believe, the purpose of a great single. Of course, no one's accused me of being, or trying to be, a hipster in some time, so maybe I'm not part of your sample size. Perhaps in your experience, a lot of people who usually don't like hip-hop like this song, and you've reasoned that they must be releasing some racial anxiety. I doubt that's true of all white people who like the song, though. Anybody see the Peanuts video set to "Hey Ya"? A bit repetitive, but it's still a great song.
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