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tinkertot - 2006-05-23 11:34:08
This picture is awesome. That is all.
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Greg - 2006-05-23 13:35:38
I have to take exception to the Harvard expert saying that the connection to language is "tenuous" because it lacks "evidence." Same sound, consistently to the same stimulus, evoking the same response, would tell me that these specific sounds signify something. Who is he trying to kid, and why?
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Greg - 2006-05-23 13:41:48
And just to celebrate our simian pals, a toast. Hey skoal!
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/05/22/hungary.apes.reut/index.html
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Taylor - 2006-05-23 14:22:14
"apes plan ahead"
...for when they take over the world, of course.
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Nova - 2006-05-23 16:06:53
Hi Taylor. I think the first wave of the attack is on!!!
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/12936096/
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Taylor - 2006-05-23 16:23:29
Damn them!! Damn them all to HELL!!
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2fs - 2006-05-23 17:01:32
Greg: Actually, it's that very consistency that makes it non-language like. Otherwise we could say that trucks have "language" when they back up: "same sound, consistently to the same stimulus, evoking the same response..." One difference between language and simple symbolic behavior is that language severs the simple one-to-one relation of symbol to sign. 'Course, I'm neither a Harvard expert nor someone who's read the article...but what you describe wouldn't convince me, anyway, without other evidence more along the lines of what I describe above.
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Paula - 2006-05-23 17:04:25
But, wait, trucks do have language, don't they?
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2fs - 2006-05-23 17:06:09
Ah, truck off!
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Greg - 2006-05-23 17:13:06
2fs--have to disagree with you there. The article describes the monkeys having two distinct sounds for two different threats and their response is accordingly different. When the sounds are combined there is a third response. (Trucks do have a language of sorts, by the way, but it's the driver speaking it. The back up signal signifies HEY BUDDY GET OUT OF THE WAY) I'm not a Harvard grad either, but I once crashed on a friend's sofa in Cambridge.
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Chris - 2006-05-23 21:47:25
What the snobby Harvard type is saying is strictly true. The combinations of sounds to create calls is far short of language. Yet the study was not crediting the monkees with language, but pointing out how very early in our evolution the embryonic stage of what would become language might sound. The more important question is whats the putty nosed monkeys phrase for "Change the fucking name of my genus" is.....
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Greg - 2006-05-24 00:12:55
Chris--I'll buy thatI guess, to an extent. The parallels seem pretty clear to me though. The fact remains though that the last 50 years of primate research have shown our hairy cousins are capable of a lot more that we would have given them credit for. Maybe the better comparison would be to weigh the types of communication other than language that humans share with the primates. And I do believe that studies like the one linked to are still to young to establish that it's NOT language. Our understanding may be more rudimentary than the alarm calls. Maybe it was a mistake to read Thomas Kuhn--I just don't fully trust some of these scientific studies any more.
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C.W. McCall - 2006-05-24 00:15:52
PAULA!!!! TRUCK LANGUAGE!!!! Breaker Breaker what's your twenty? Doncha just wish songs about the internet would break the top ten, the way songs about CB Radio did?
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Chris - 2006-05-24 05:08:21
Greg--Thats right, the parallels are very strong. Given how similar we are at a genetic level with the lower order Primates it shouldnt be a suprise. Thats why the search for the "tools" of language has been so frustrating. Then again language which serves us so well has ugly spin offs like "Truck songs"
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C.W. McCall - 2006-05-24 08:54:28
Chris, re: Tools 10-4 good buddy. I'm about to put the hammer down
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Alan - 2006-05-24 10:27:37
Please save the putting down of the hammer for the Sixth of June.
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Paula - 2006-05-24 10:44:16
Maybe it was a mistake to read Thomas Kuhn--I just don't fully trust some of these scientific studies any more.
That's funny. Reading Thomas Kuhn in college was a giddy awakening for me, too.
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alan - 2006-05-24 10:47:05
Hey Hey Paula, I don't know if you've seen this yet but if you haven't you need to.
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Greg - 2006-05-24 13:20:56
Paula--I've read a lot of criticism of Thomas Kuhn, but mostly from scientists, and the odd linguist who says he uses "paradigm" incorrectly. I can ignore both camps and just take it that TSOSR gave me that "giddy awakening."
Alan--Two things--I totally missed the Sixth of June reference AND what I want to know about the Sotted Ape factor is a) does red wine make them all weird and maudlin and b) since humans have been accused of acting like apes when they drink (well, I have been), do apes act like humans when they get liquored up?
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Paula - 2006-05-24 13:27:13
I find that when the apes I know drink red wine, their ability to plan ahead and use proto-language skills gets all shot to hell.
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Alan - 2006-05-24 18:07:59
For Greg:
Twas the dark of the moon
On the Sixth of June
In a Kenworth, pulling logs
Cab-over Pete with a reefer on
And a Jimmy, hauling hogs
We were headed North on I-10
Bout a mile out of Shakey Town
I said "Pig Pen, this here's the Rubber Duck
And I'm about to put the hammer down
From memory, but fairly close I think, the lyrics to "Convoy" by C.W. McCall (Music by Chip Davis, later founder of Mannheim Steamroller), the song credited with launching with the CB radio fad in the Seventies.
As far as the red wine question, imagine if the lead singer for UB40 was a monkey.
Red, red wine
Makes me feel so fine
Keeps me happy
All the time
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Greg - 2006-05-24 18:28:12
Alan, you rule! And I thought that guy from UB40 was a particularly chatty putty-nose that Neil Diamond keeps in his eyebrows.
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2fs in a wool hat - 2006-05-24 18:58:28
Chris: "the study was not crediting the monkees with language." Well it certainly should: I could swear I've heard at least Michael Nesmith speak - and a rather articulate Monkee he was, too.
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Bob - 2006-05-25 11:42:30
UB40 covered Red Red Wine (didn't know that myself til I saw the original on a compilation in a local record shop last week).
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Paula - 2006-05-26 14:24:26
UB40 covered Red Red Wine
Non-interesting-to-non-college-friends fact: UB40's cover is the one and only song I associate with New College, for its having been relentlessly played at every Palm Court Party and "wall" that I ever attended.
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jon - 2006-05-27 16:20:27
Any list of songs relentlessly played at New College parties would have to include:
"Mesopotamia" by the B-52's
"This Must Be the Place" by Talking Heads
"World Destruction" by Time Zone
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Paula - 2006-05-30 14:15:13
Oh, yeah. True.
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