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Greg - 2007-05-03 13:36:31
I wish I'd finally outgrow my awkward years! Knut... he's a handsome young man. Still hard to believe he's going to be half a ton soon.
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EG - 2007-05-03 13:58:04
I dropped emusic some time ago. But just the other day they got me back with a 50 free downloads for re-joining. Woo-hoo!
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Greg - 2007-05-03 14:10:51
My dangerous idea: Downloading single songs is dangerous to music and musicians, even if they get paid directly. It degrades the relationship between the musician and the audience, and devalues songs (at least in the mind of the listener) because humans are conditioned by both nature and nurture to place more value on physical objects.
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EG - 2007-05-03 16:07:07
Greg - My own experience would disagree. Not too long ago, I was a middle age man with little or no knowledge of what was going on in music. I would just be waiting to see if Southside Johnny was ever going to put out something relevant again. But then I got my mp3 player and I started looking around the internet and started downloading songs. My middle age situation hasn't gotten better, but in the last two years I've discovered a great number of new bands and have enjoyed some really fantastic music I would never have heard otherwise. I think albums have been devalued but songs still matter, maybe never more now than since the fifties and early sixties.
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Paula - 2007-05-03 16:20:32
OK, firstly: 50 free downloads! I guess I should have quit after all. Oh well.
Secondly, I am more inclined to agree with EG.
I see downloading, MySpace, iTunes, Emusic, etc. as invigorating--an exciting way to discover new music that you would never hear on the radio. (Actually, I haven't listened to the radio since I had a car, but I mean general Zeitgeist radio).
Also, rather than degrading the r'ship between artist and audience, it makes it more intimate, DIY. You know, the good part of the punk ethos.
Further--the magic of iTunes is such that I have re-discovered many songs that I had written off or disliked on the first few listens. It has actually increased my patience and appreciation for listening to new things.
because humans are conditioned by both nature and nurture to place more value on physical objects
More value on physical objects than...metaphysical objects? Intangible things? You state this like you're citing a study or something, but it doesn't ring true. Do you want to expand on this?
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Paula - 2007-05-03 16:24:27
And when I say "doesn't ring true," I don't mean I think it's not true, I'm saying, "where does this idea come from?"
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Greg - 2007-05-03 17:11:08
Okay, firstly... In the spirit of the Dangerous Idea book, this is not something I believe implicitly, so much as something I think could possibly be true. BUT--A) Is there a larger percentage of the music buying audience using downloads for stuff they otherwise might not have heard than the percentage of brick and mortar shoppers of 20 years ago? Or is it just a greater number of people downloading the top 40? B) This would extend to the DIY/punk thing--Is there evidence that the internet has made it easier for unsigned musicians to make a living? Is the audience that would rather buy directly from the artist (not free downloads) any larger now because of the internet? C)The catch word in internet marketing for some time now has been Behaviorism. Marketing firms used to rely on surveys which proved unreliable. The survey has been replaced by actual hard data from internet shopping. Internet content, be it text, illustrations, photos or music, is exceedingly hard to charge money for because the overwhelming perception is that if it's on the web, it's on the web free. ITunes and EMusic are sort of a go-between, but the perceived value of the content is generally much lower. And though this ranges into "survey" territory. Do you expect to have the same tunes archived on your harddrive or Ipod now in 10 years? Conversely, many record collectors still have albums they bought years ago, or have replaced them on a new medium... usually CD. Now... albums degrading singles is probably true in many cases as well, but it doesn't go against the argument that downloading is dangerous.
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Greg - 2007-05-03 17:15:44
I should rephrase the punk/diy bit--replacing making a living with "getting an audience." I don't think anything can beat relentless touring.
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Greg - 2007-05-03 17:20:18
Also... a phenomenon described here in relations to downloads. There is a tendency to get too much too quickly and one downside of that is not having the same relationship with individual artists and albums.
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Paula - 2007-05-03 17:23:54
I follow everything you're saying, but I'm still not sure where the "danger" comes in, or what "perceived devaluing" is.
Do you expect to have the same tunes archived on your harddrive or Ipod now in 10 years?
That's an excellent point, but I think as downloading becomes more prevalent, record collectors and music lovers will find some way around this.
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Tom G. - 2007-05-03 17:42:47
Do you expect to have the same tunes archived on your harddrive or Ipod now in 10 years? That's an excellent point, but I think as downloading becomes more prevalent, record collectors and music lovers will find some way around this.
I don't follow: what is the problem? Some way around what?
Paula, I came across this link to an article you might find interesting: Punk + Yoga
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Tom G. - 2007-05-03 17:47:26
Sorry, I forgot to attribute the above find to Robot Wisdom auxiliary.
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Paula - 2007-05-03 17:49:01
Some way around what?
Around having too much stuff on the hardrive, so you have to back it up onto disc or get an external drive.
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Paula - 2007-05-03 17:53:41
Punk + Yoga: well, my stance has always been that if a gimmick gets people to try yoga, it's probably a good thing. The heart of it will sink in somehow if the student is open.
Personally, I can't stand hearing music, even yoga-friendly music, while I'm practicing yoga, so this would be lost on me anyway.
Stedl wants to avoid being "a gimmick,"
Yeah, good luck with that.
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Tom G. - 2007-05-03 18:09:05
so you have to back it up onto disc or get an external drive
Oh, okay. Yes, the need for backups will never go away. It sounds to me though that Greg is arguing that it's the digital medium that is dangerous because it removes the physical-ness to the songs that we humans somehow need to be able to perceive value. I think that right now that may be true but for future or current generations of music lovers it will be less true. We're in the middle of a period of change in the transmission of information and yes that is kind of dangerous...and kind of exciting.
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Greg - 2007-05-03 18:17:49
I don't believe that the human need for music and art or other pursuits will ever disappear, but there is a definite measurable relationship between object and value. We don't like to think of our aesthetic pursuits as being attached to consumerism but all current evidence shows it to be so. There does seem to be a correlation between the proliferation of recorded music in any medium and a decrease in live music. It would also appear to be harder for musicians to make even a subsistence living off of being musicians. Of course I'm only going on hearsay evidence, but one thing the web has given us is greater access to immense amounts of hearsay evidence.
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Greg - 2007-05-03 18:20:34
There is also no hard evidence that the digital medium manifests the idea of disposability in any greater amount than any other aspect of our culture. It's definitely something I think about though.
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EG - 2007-05-03 21:20:03
Years ago, music for me was a vinyl record and radio. I bought a lot of records, but I also listened to a lot of radio and heard a lot of music on the radio that I enjoyed and never bought. I had nothing tangible, nothing in my hand. But, if I heard some of those songs today, I could recite the lyrics and recount a memory that I associate with that song like it happened yesterday. I have records that I played the crap out of 25 years ago, but haven't touched in twenty five years either. Is the song I download now and play today any different than the song I would hear over and over again on the radio? If I keep an mp3 on my hard drive for years, is that any different than the comedy albums I've owned since I was 12 and don't listen to anymore? Do most people still have the vinyl records they grew up with? It seems there is a lot of uncertainty with the technology. There is disagreement among musicians and the record companies are downright petrified. I don't think people need to just accept the status quo either. There will always be a niche market for whatever you're looking for. I may have missed the point of the previous arguments, but those are the thoughts that they brought out in me.
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EG - 2007-05-03 21:38:09
No, you didn't miss the point at all, and you very well may be right, that there is no difference. I don't know if I foresee a breakdown in big record companies at all, but perhaps only in the way they deliver their goods, to people who don't care where they get it (read: most people). There are probably downsides to a complete breakdown of that nature anyway--not the least of which would be the disappearance of the mega-superstars that only big labels seem to be able to create. In music and book publishing, it's the huge sellers that pay a huge amount of stuff that loses money anyway. It was mostly big labels responsible for the ubiquity of the songs we all remember word for word 40 years on. Can a phenom like viral marketing replace that big market push? Anyway, this is all expanding in my head to different tangents.
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Mr. Oops - 2007-05-03 21:40:00
THAT'S ME DAMN IT, BUT I'M SO USED TO E-MAIL THAT I ADDRESS THE TOP LINE TO THE PERSON... THAT I'M ADDRESSING. Love, Greg
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2fs - 2007-05-03 23:47:59
First: Songs are the main format of popular music, not albums: always have been, probably always will be. When I say "popular music," I mean the adjective literally. People who consume popular music think of music differently from the way music fans do. And they've always gotten much, even most of it, free: on the radio, mostly, but from friends' copies, etc. The problem is, the industry did not anticipate the typical shallowness of most fans' relation to the music they consume - and, worse, they'd built their whole financial structure on megaselling records tentpoling the whole shebang. Record companies don't care if you're downloading some obscure track from something they released in 1979; they care that you're downloading the new Beyonce song...and *not* buying the CD. Part of this is rec-cos' own fault: for killing the single. For a while, they were able to coast on the novelty of the CD...and so fans who really only wanted the hits would buy the CD - then again, they didn't have much choice at first. Singles were basically dead: vinyl was a specialist market (again, aimed at music *fans* not popular-music *consumers*), and the CD single was never priced appropriately, never formalized in terms of physical format (remember those cute li'l 3-inch CDs?), and basically died w/o much impact.
I think the stranglehold of formatted radio and MTV, along with that tentpole strategy, is what's really screwing the major labels (indie labels are nowhere near as affected by all this - at least, last report I heard, a couple years ago). And good luck trying to convince people downloading is "wrong"...either people don't know the history of rec-cos' abusive contracts etc., and treat downloading like their own personal radio station - or people do know about it, and realize it's not the artist who's losing anything, it's the rec-cos...about whom they care not a fig (as that Shakespeare fella might say).
Fact is, musicians have never been able to make money on music. I suppose some do...but primarily, if musicians make money, it's on celebrity, essentially - including touring, ancillary merch, etc.
And you know what? If major labels collapse, and all the people pursuing a "music" career because they want to become famous, a big face on a billboard, just up and quit or go into movies or something, that'll be fine. Music should be made by musicians - not because they want to make a living at it (which has always been an unrealistic expectation) but because it's a thing of joy, wonder, and beauty to create, and to share. And because they can't not create it.
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Greg - 2007-05-04 08:38:38
2fs--I can't entirely agree nor disagree on the whole. One thought--where you say "because they can't not create it." Do you believe that the aptitude to make music and the drive to do so are any more nobly or even divinely inpsired than the aptitude and drive to be a good carpenter or a mathmetician? Discussions of art and artists in any medium always seem to lean towards the "rarified air" phenomenon. Do you believe that musicians and artists create simply for the joy, wonder and beauty of creation? I wouldn't disagree that this is part of it, but I don't think it's any different than somebody enrapt with being a good fisherman or woodworker or any other pursuit.
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Greg - 2007-05-04 08:53:05
>>>People who consume popular music think of music differently from the way music fans do<<< I'm not sure I understand the distinction. Aren't we all consumers?
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Greg - 2007-05-04 09:13:46
Paula--I think the real danger, or at least my greatest fear, is that I'll be set upon by angry digitalists swinging their burned out and broken IPods about like aboriginal bola weapons.
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2fs - 2007-05-04 16:43:37
Amusingly, elsewhere I've been arguing *against* the way musicians are regarded in a sort of idealized way; that at times, we should think of them exactly as we would any other worker (this had to do with using music in ads, etc.). Still: music isn't a "trade" in the way carpentry is (or was). True, one might do carpentry as a hobby (or math, for that matter - and certainly fishing or woodworking), but it's also true that the best carpenters, fishers, mathematicians, and woodworkers would work wood (sorry - couldn't resist) even if they weren't paid for it. That's true of some jobs, but not all, I suppose: I don't think accountants would reconcile accounts for fun, if only because what accounts would there be? As to the consumer/fan distinction: it's a matter of emphasis. If you can name a bass player who's not a singer, you're a fan ;-)
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Greg - 2007-05-04 18:27:21
2fs--I think fans/supporters etc of most disciplines idealize not only their "idols" but themselves and can rationalize their interests as something special that sets them apart from the pack. As far as my own interest in music, as a fan and not a musician, I'd like to think that my relationship with the stuff I like is in some way superior to that of consumers of the latest hit single or pop idol... No, I often entertain the notion that it is... but I'd be hard pressed to prove it and moreso, it's probably just not true.
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That Future Clouds and Radar albun is some kind of swell.
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