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Intellectual House o' Pancakes Comments Page and Grill
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iwombat - 2007-06-15 12:06:35
enjoyed the dis fest, didn't read all of it, just some records that I like. It feels somewhat therapeutic to try out some negativity, see what sticks, I still love Sgt. Peppers, but there's some truth in the point of view here, it's not rock music anymore, it's not about adrenaline, or other sundry hormones, it's craft, and imagination, dreams and meditations.I love it...I tend to agree about Pet sounds, though, some great songs, but a bit of a rambling mess overall.
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Greg - 2007-06-15 12:10:10
I liked this article despite that there are several albums listed that I love AND that one of my favorite writers slagged one of my favorite albums. I will give voice to the greatest of heresies here. MOST of our favorite albums, for any of us, are favorites for reasons that have sweet f--k all to do with the quality of the music. They are only groundbreaking or genius or "of cultural import" or "consciousness raising" only in the most empty of definitions. A blog, someone else's especially is not a broad enough medium to discuss this really... but I think the bloated, self-important, corpulent Jim Morrison said it the best in his highly overrated but much revered book of poetry. The first line on the first page reads, "Look where we worship..." If he never wrote another poem or lyric, that would be an important statement.
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Greg - 2007-06-15 12:18:54
I can't get too academic about music and I've heard all kinds of academic arguments about why I should appreciate Pet Sounds. Why do brussels sprouts activate my gag reflex? I don't know. Same for Pet Sounds.
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iwombat - 2007-06-15 12:31:56
well I think I can answer the Brussels sprouts question (I have a weird habit of answering rhetorical questions), when over cooked (as all vegetables were in our yoot) they produce sulphur, a distinctly stinky chemical, although if treated carefully, I find they can be tasty (with butter and garlic). I also particularly like Caroline No.
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Greg - 2007-06-15 12:49:00
I should point out that my first note on this topic was written with the best of humor, which doesn't translate into pixels. We all love what we love for varied reasons. I can't accept that my opinion (or anybody else's) on pop music means all that much to the well-being of the world.
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Alan - 2007-06-15 12:52:21
I was fine with most of the commentary, though I disagreed with some, it was intellectually, but as soon as I got to Craig Finn's shot at The Doors, I had an immediate strong emotional reaction. I guess it's always funny until it's your ox being gored.
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Mr Lojban - 2007-06-15 13:03:56
I haven't listened to it in a while, and it's definitely overlong, but I still think that "Barbarism begins at home" has one of the nicest basslines ever, repetition notwithstanding. Then I heard the live version, and it's different, and just as nice. Disclaimer: I am irrational about Andy Rourke.
But I agree with many of the specifics and the general sentiment. The comments on "Marquee Moon" articulated my own feelings almost exactly.
I still reckon "Sgt Pepper's" (maybe more precisely the Beatles' whole catalog) did a good deal of the broadening of what "rock" was -- what can we sing about? what instruments can we use? --, and I think that's a good thing, and if rock gets bloated from time to time and needs to be stripped down again, you know, it's cyclic like that.
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Greg - 2007-06-15 13:57:07
Re Marquee Moon: I do think a couple tunes could be shortened but see no reason to. I would never equate them to many of the jam bands because they actually had complete songs and they build off the songs... not long empty grooves distilled weakly into a song. In that respect Television was closer to jazz. Would someone consider say, the Miles Davis Quintet, or Art Blakey's Jazz Messenger jam bands?
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Philip - 2007-06-15 14:21:32
Being a dyed-in-wool hater, I find articles like that totally entertaining...and it follows nicely on the heels of Aimee Mann's luke-warm "appreciation" of Sgt. Pepper's anniversary in the NY Times (and the utterly resplendent and way too seldom-heard-from Gina Arnold's dousing of same in a recent Salon article) -- so I guess it's in the air at the moment.
That said, Franz Ferdinand guy going after Marquee Moon is like Bret Easton Ellis criticizing James Joyce -- it's completely ridiculous. Ian Rankin can go fuck himself too. Jackass. Have your fun with the Beatles and Pet Sounds and the Lizard King and whatnot...but The Velvet Underground? Is he kidding???
By the way, I nominate anything by U2 for this category. They suck.
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Paula - 2007-06-15 14:40:16
Not that it matters--I mean this wasn't the point--but I've just had an afternoon coffee and feelin' chatty so for the record, IMO: I treasure VU & Nico, it was a big, important album for meI really like Marquee Moon, all of itI have a soft spot for all the Smiths oeuvreI can't really get through all of Pet Sounds, but I love certain songsThe Strokes are okI have no opinion about Tupac or Stone RosesPost-Syd Pink Floyd and the Doors both epitomize the high school stoner rock I was rebelling against in my yootWhile I don't love Captain Beefheart, I liked his song "Sheriff of Hong Kong" enough to put that as my Nerve profile headline (and no one ever got it, or even attempted to google it, I always just got "What parts of Hong Kong have you been to?")
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Greg - 2007-06-15 14:46:59
Hahaha Philip!! I was tempted to go for the Franz Ferdinand guy too, but they are HUGELY popular in the U.K., and they had to have some balance in there or you'd just end up with bitter old geezers. Ian Rankin (one of my favorite writers) surprised me with V.U. Then I thought about it and many of my friends HATE Velvet Underground also, especially where Nico comes into the picture. She really can't sing to save her life (not that she needs to anymore)and it really isn't enough to say "that's the point." She was dreadful and had she not the retrospective hip creds, nobody would defend her. Despite her I've got a near lifelong affair with that album.
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Greg - 2007-06-15 14:49:24
I'm still laughing my hole off--I do love the Velvets. Paula--Trout Mask was the album I'd put on after having picked up a hitchhiker that smelled a bit more ripe than I'd expected, or was annoying, or didn't want to share drugs.
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amatt - 2007-06-15 15:03:19
The Doors. I'll never get it. Ugh.
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Paula - 2007-06-15 15:13:52
And while I don't have an opinion about Tupac, I do have an anecdote that involves Tupac and a fake Italian gondolier at the Venetian Hotel in Las Vegas.
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grigorss - 2007-06-15 17:20:27
Paula -- I'm so ignorant of rap music that I'm uncertain if your last comment was genuine or some sort of inside joke. If you do have an anecdote, by all means share...
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Steve - 2007-06-15 19:08:37
I wrote this reflection on VU&Nico on it's 40th anniversary, and stand by most of it. The first side is rock solid, but the second side (especially the last two songs) drag the whole thing down to unlistenability for me. For ME. I'm expressing a personal opinion. Isn't Neon Bible a little new to be considered a sacred cow?
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Greg - 2007-06-15 19:48:59
Steve--good reflection and thanks for the covers. The writers you cited are the classic example of pop culture hyperbole, not to mention a bit of historical revisionism. The writers are always reaching... stretching, to chisel out some stone tablet. I can no longer try to explain why a song or an album moves me (or doesn't), let alone try to weigh it against history. It's like an orgasm. It it feels good...
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2fs - 2007-06-16 02:25:06
Paula: I got the "Sheriff of Hong Kong" reference - I swear I mentioned it in an e-mail at least. Oh well...probably one of those long, weird ones ;-)
As for the "overrated" things: some of them were interesting, but some of them were entirely predictable. Like one of the Sgt. Pepper ones: oh noes rock isn't about alienation and attitude anymore. As if being "alienated" necessarily leads to good music (I've got a room full of Candlebox CDs for you if you believe that. Okay, I don't actually have it - but if there is such a room, you're welcome to it.)
My main overrated person is Janis Joplin. Typical Texas blues singer - except she died. (Oh - and the Doors would have been a much better band with a different singer and lyricist. Probably a less successful one, granted.)
At times I think Lou Reed is massively overrated - even though I like large swaths of his catalog. At other times I think we're all missing the fact that he's really a stand-up comedian, and everything he's ever done that seems to be lame is really a huge, Andy Kaufman-esque meta-joke. (Most obviously, of course, _Metal Machine Music_.)
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Bina - 2007-06-16 07:23:56
The entry about the Smiths' Meat is Murder made me laugh out loud!
As for Tupac - I live in a house with a die-hard Tupac fan, so I've listened to many hours of his rap, and there's just something that happens to the energy in the room when one of his songs comes on. He may not have been the cleverest lyricist, and his music and beats may have been raw and unsubtle, but the sheer muscularity of his voice and manner, and the sheer emotion he wasn't afraid to portray was very rare in such a young guy and in a genre where everyone's trying to sound so jaded. You do get the impression that he was aware he didn't have as much time on this earth as the rest of us, so he had to hurry and do what he could in the time that he had. I wouldn't necessarily use the g-word about him, but I can understand those that do.
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Paula - 2007-06-16 09:11:35
I wouldn't necessarily use the g-word about him, but I can understand those that do.
Gangsta? That was a lovely explanation, Bina. The Tupac/Las Vegas story: I was being swanned around by one of those fake Italian gondoliers at the Venetian Hotel, who would sing love songs and yammer on in a cartoon Eye-talian accent about various tourist-related topics. My companion at the time mentioned Tupac and asked for details about his murder. The gondolier, who was probably not used to talking about things he was interested in, got really excited and started telling the detailed story about Tupac's death at the MGM Grand. As the story advanced, his accent started slipping away. By the end of the anecdote it was completely gone.
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Paula - 2007-06-16 09:20:02
2fs: totally with you on the Lou thing. I've long suspected that John Cale "was" the VU. As for Janis: that's interesting. It wouldn't have occurred to me to place her in the "o" bin, cuz she does have a distinctive voice, and was reputed to be a particularly charismatic and engaged performer.
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Philip - 2007-06-16 09:51:06
What did John Cale have to do with Pale Blue Eyes? Say what you want about Lou Reed and the cranky stand-up monster he became (I mean, please! Go ahead! "The Raven"???), but for those five years or so he was on a songwriting roll that it's hard to imagine anyone surpassing.
I've actually always thought Sterling "was" the VU for all intents and purposes -- the most UNDER-rated in MVP maybe in all of rockdom...and now, Paula, I'm getting distinct deja vu like we've had this conversation before.
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Greg - 2007-06-16 12:10:34
I love Lou Reed really--but often I feel that he's only open to his own interpretation of the world and his affected scorn which barely hides what I see as profound insecurity annoys me. If he wasn't so disdainful I would be more deeply touched. Cale, on the other hand, I believe is into music more for the music and I appreciate that. He can do the same things as Lou without shouting LOOK AT ME I'M AN ARTIST. There's a live cover he does of Leonard Cohen's Hallelujah (Youtube-able) that shatters me with its beauty, by the way. Brings me to tears every time.
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Bina - 2007-06-16 23:12:36
G-word = genius.
I hope you had a great show tonight, Paula!!!
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2fs - 2007-06-17 00:31:55
I'm not a Lou-hater - I did say I enjoy a whole lot of his catalog. But to hear some people, it's as if he's this incredible genius that could never do anything wrong. Whereas my view is, he's right up there with the Legends of Great Rock Stars Who've Also Put Out Reams of Crap: Dylan, Neil Young, Van Morrison, the Kinks. As for Janis: Lotsa people have "distinctive" voices (and I thought she modeled hers after some other obscure blues singer anyway) and, of course, her live abilities got nothin' to do with me, since she died before I hit puberty. Anyway, I hate the blues. (Not really or entirely - but large amounts of the blues bore me to tears.)
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Greg - 2007-06-17 03:09:46
I have to say, I really like Janis Joplin, not so much for a "distinctive" voice but... man, I can listen to Cheap Thrills even still and get so charged up. It's one of those recordings with so much energy. It's really so out there on the edges of sanity it drives me nuts. It's one of those super freaky recordings that captures something absolutely wild.
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jon der neathica - 2007-06-17 07:09:39
I agree with 2fs about Janis Joplin: she did not know the meaning of restraint, and the originals of songs that she popularized (such as "Cry Baby" and "Try a Little Bit Harder") are much better than her overwrought versions. Also, I do recall an exchange between Paula and 2fs about "Sheriff of Hong Kong". It was when I mentioned in my blog that there are two Atlanta record stores named after Beefheart songs.
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Paula - 2007-06-17 10:32:46
I'm not a Lou-hater Understood. Neither am I. The main theme here is the concept of "overrated."
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Philip - 2007-06-17 11:57:39
Well, Janis -- love her or hate her (and for the record, she's not quite my cuppa tea), I agree with Greg that the crux of her singularity is exactly what JDN seems not to like: she did not know the meaning of restraint; not in life or art -- it was all one thing to her. She didn't even possess the means to understand the concept of restraint. And her appeal lies in the psychotic carnivorousness with with she tore into those songs. And I think people respond (those who do respond) to how naked and unaffected that insane energy was -- she opened her mouth and that's what happened to come out. A gift, a curse, whatever. But an incredible force of will for a pudgy, ugly nobody from east Texas.
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Philip - 2007-06-17 20:34:31
Also -- apropos of this thread, which was very much on my mind -- it was funny to see all the 20-something hipsters (Williamsburg was out in force,!) try to hide their collective shock and disappointment as the "legendary" Television meandered through a half-assed, Richard Lloydless set in the park yesterday. Always a pleasure to watch Tom Verlaine play guitar, but for the uninitiated it must have seemed like a bad joke.
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Paula - 2007-06-17 20:36:30
Lloydless Now that's a great album. I love MBV.
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Paula - 2007-06-17 20:39:31
Also: what you say about Janis, Philip, sounds very true.
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