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I wombat - 2004-08-03 10:20:32
I think sad songs can help us accept our sadness, with their input of commiseration and asethic context, and "the deeper you go, the higher you fly, the higher you fly, the higher you fly,the deeper you go so come on" I think there are many fine lines, between songs that recognize and accept sadness as part of consciousness, and calls to sentimental passivity.
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Paula - 2004-08-03 10:46:28
Yeah. Interestingly, your choice of quote is from a song that I have always found really joyful.
Sad songs are certainly, um, useful, and often pretty, and I've written my share.
But after a while, singing them becomes a drag. There is one song I wrote a few years ago while in a lot of pain that I don't even bother singing anymore cuz I don't identify with it and I don't want to be responsibile for anyone else accidentally identifying with it either. :)
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Dan - 2004-08-03 12:23:29
Tell us the lost song, so that we can all be sorry that we'll never hear it again!
I got to talk to Alex Chilton once, and told him how much I loved "Blue Moon." He made a little frown face, then said, "To me, those are sad songs. I don't want to make people sad anymore. I want to make them happy." "Blue Moon" makes me very happy, of course - everybody does something different with the raw material, I guess.
Now Playing: "Outtathaway!" by the Vines, which I love.
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Paula - 2004-08-03 12:37:57
"Blue Moon" huh? I always think of that as a pretty love song. Maybe he wrote it for someone whose memory makes him sad.
As for me, my lost song is "Hometown Boy."
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Anonymous Coward - 2004-08-03 12:56:54
Nice quote on the subject from Slaid Cleaves:
"I thought, well, either I need to write some happy stuff to balance this record out, or I need to just go with the dark stuff. And then I had a little epiphany, and I said, Yeah. I'll be the guy who writes the saddest songs, the tragic stuff. That's always been what's moved me. [...] I remember a teacher in high school saying, "Why do you like The River? It's such a depressing album." Well, I don't find these songs depressing at all. I feel uplifted when I hear a story that lets me know I'm not alone, that everyone struggles, that life is not easy."
Don't know the guy's stuff all that well, but I think the song "Broke Down" is a real gem. But sad as hell.
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Dan - 2004-08-03 13:00:44
Darn - I *am* really sorry to lose that one. You know, one could make a strong argument that that song points up and underlines the unhealthy aspects of the situation, so that no one could simply identify with the bad stuff without also getting a more distanced, balanced perspective.
I think the whole time around "Blue Moon" was very sad and negative in Chilton's mind. Not all the songs from that period were tarred with the same brush - he performed several Third/Sister Lovers songs the evening that I spoke to him - but the sadness seemed to be contained in that stage of his life.
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Paula - 2004-08-03 13:06:57
But what I'm exploring here is this prejudice amongst serious music fans and musicians themselves, as demonstrated by Slaid's quote, that "happy" songs are phony somehow. Or simple. Happiness is as complex and interesting an emotion to me as sadness.
Gospel songs are happy--but not necessarily simple or treacly. I like songs about hard-won happiness, or about being happy despite evidence that your life isn't great.
And on a practical level, happy music can be really healing. I would like to rise to the challenge of making happy music that isn't stupid. Or love songs that aren't necessarily romantic or delusional.
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Dan - 2004-08-03 13:16:36
Happiness is as complex and interesting an emotion to me as sadness.
Tolstoy's famous thought on the subject: "All happy families resemble one another; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way." Maybe this has something to do with why we have trouble imagining heaven to be an interesting place!
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Paula - 2004-08-03 13:21:18
That quote is famous indeed but does not resonate with me at all. Wait a sec--IT guy is here to work on my computer, more later.
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I wombat - 2004-08-03 13:22:36
I have often enjoyed the device of lyrics describing a sad situation, while the music and maybe the very fact of singing, generates the hope and even enthusiasm to go on. I think the blues exists in a unique position in relation to sad/happy and happy/sad.
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Dave - 2004-08-03 13:22:58
2 points-
1) In high school I listened almost entirely to depressing music and I was something of a depressed fellow. I have to say that finding Brazilian music really changed my demeanor. I literally was a happier person by taking off the Pink Floyd records and putting on Jorge Ben. (I actually have a theory that if The Wall had never been recorded, teenagers as a group would be a happier lot. There's something about that album which encourages the worst kind of depressed narcissim that teenagers are already prone to.)
2) After being in a band with the two main folks arguing before each show about the pros and cons of playing one song vs another (most of the time the excuse being "I don't feel like playing that.") I say, "Stop whining and play the damn song!" Not performing a song because you personally don't feel like playing it is just plain unprofessional. Every situation you play a song in is different and you never know what folks are getting out of it and sometimes even what you will get out of playing it. Intention is about 30% of the equation (perhaps less) in songwriting and performance. I understand the concept of taking a break from a song as a kind of vacation so you can hear it again fresh, but you should never retire a song (addendum - you should never retire a *good* song). In short, play Hometown Boy!
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Joe - 2004-08-03 13:39:02
It's a shame you're retiring that song, Paula. I think it's really good. I can understand why it would be unpleasant to recall, though.
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Paula - 2004-08-03 13:58:33
Dave: good points, all. I'm glad someone agrees with my groundbreaking "happy music is more fun than sad music" theorum.
As for "HB", it's not so much that it's a sad song as it is a pathetic and self-pitying song. I wouldn't want my 17-yr-old niece listening to that, thinking that's the way love is.
As for the comment about happy families and heaven being boring--I am fascinated by happy families and happy people--it's not easy to be happy and conscious and awake, and anyone who strikes me as genuinely happy (and not pretend-happy) has, in my opinion, triumphed over the forces in this world that conspire to drag everyone down. Whereas sad-heads are kinda boring to me--they've given in.
And I'm not talking about "clinically depressed people" who need medication (I could see that argument coming down main street from one or two of my friends)
As for heaven: if there was a heaven, it wouldn't be boring, because heaven would be perfect, and the idea of "perfection" precludes boredom. Bliss is an exciting state, not a boring one.
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Dan - 2004-08-03 14:09:51
I don't mean to be argumentative about this, but I feel as if I'm on a mission to save "Hometown Boy." I don't know about your 17-year-old niece in particular, but, if she's sensitive to poetry, she will be able to perceive that the singer of the song is pointing out the self-pitying aspects of the situation in a way that prevents us from grooving on them too much or endorsing them. "No hometown boy will do/When I can be treated this bad by you" - it's not exactly a summons to endure bad treatment.
If she's not sensitive to poetry, I guess she might do away with herself, who knows. But it would be a less interesting world if all good art went away just because it could be used for bad purposes.
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Paula - 2004-08-03 14:22:29
Hmm...I will think about resurrecting "HB." I must give the people what they want. Thanks for a stimulatin' discussion.
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Joe - 2004-08-03 14:25:05
I always thought the end of HB was the singer finally realizing how she's been wasting her time. Plus, how could you throw away a line like "the triumph of substance abuse over style"?
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Paula - 2004-08-03 14:32:13
True.
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amatt - 2004-08-03 15:16:23
''Not performing a song because you personally don't feel like playing it is just plain unprofessional.''
Don't really agree wholeheartedly.
Music is emotion. Play what your emotions dictate. Be true to yourself. Unless your getting paid.
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Sharps - 2004-08-03 15:18:09
Jules Verdone gave me two end-of-the-90s mix tapes: one "Feel-good" mix of happy songs, one "Feel-bad" collection of downers. I wrote her back that the tapes were perfect for my two most-common moods: the happy tape for when I'm depressed and need to be uplifted, and the sad tape for when I'm depressed and feel like wallowing.
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Sharps - 2004-08-03 15:24:28
Now, about "Hometown Boy": as you know, I've always loved that song, but was against the slow, mournful waltz arrangement that I thought pushed the song into bathos. That's why I suggested the arrangement we used on "Iced Coffee" which I will happily admit I stole outright from "Passionate Kisses." This was the trick in my old band Circle Sky: write a really depressing song but play it like it's "Celebrate Good Times Come On!" We thought it was an irresistable, can't-miss formula, but then again we never made any money so don't listen to me.
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Flasshe - 2004-08-03 15:30:57
I love love love Hometown Boy. I'm not sure if it's my favorite PC song, but it's certainly the one that never fails to make me emotional when I hear it. And that's always a rare and wonderful thing for me. Agree with Joe on the great substance/style lyric.
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La Dorkette Supreme - 2004-08-03 15:46:59
Sad songs say so much!
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amatt - 2004-08-03 15:47:15
Gee Sharps, but it's really fun to play slow!!!!!
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Dan - 2004-08-03 16:04:03
I just found my long-lost copy of Robots Helping Robots, so I did a quick comparison of the two versions. There's something magical about the sonic space on the Iced Coffee version, but in this case I'll have to go with the slower waltz version. I love the way it builds, and the 3/4 time somehow makes the melody in the chorus work much better for me. And I don't think it's a vice to play straight into the sadness of the song - there's enough complexity in the lyric that I'm happy to have the music take a straight shot at the heart.
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Paula - 2004-08-03 16:09:56
Gotta go with Dan on this one. The 4/4 time never worked for me.
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Sharps - 2004-08-03 19:26:57
Ehhhh! I'll just note that post-breakup, John Lennon used to always complain that he had wanted to record "Help!" much slower, hence truer to its melancholy content, but got talked out of it because the others thought singles had to be fast. I thought they were right, not for that reason, but for the reason I gave above: those heartbreaking words over that manic, jangly, race to the finish is exhilirating! And I'll also note that one of the great things about listening to Fabs' and EC & Attractions' outtakes is to hear how they would run through all kinds of different meters and tempos for a song before settling.
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Tim Walters - 2004-08-03 19:31:22
I'm a huge fan of HB as well. Please reconsider!
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2fs - 2004-08-04 00:09:26
On alternate versions (or hypothetical ones): I've always thought Roger Daltrey's performance of "Who Are You" completely misses the song. I mean, there's some defiance there, to be sure - but I've always taken much of it (not all) as another of Pete's spiritual songs - see here, the last two verses particularly. I almost feel that some of the earlier verses were tossed in to give Daltrey something to sing more in line with his persona. At any rate, to me the last two verses have always been the heart of the song. (The hypothetical version pulls back to a hush on the last verse, instead of bellowing fullbore like Daltrey does it.)
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The Ox - 2004-08-04 10:33:53
Typical! Yep, every discussion of sad songs, "Hometown Boy", and alternate versions inevitably leads back Daltrey's vocal on (the non-alternate) "Who Are You." You are sooo predictable, FF!
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2fs - 2004-08-04 11:48:41
Yo Ox! <--that looks pretty cool, no?
Aren't you supposed to be dead?
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LitCritMom - 2004-08-04 21:30:17
I'd like to bring this discussion back to books. I've always thought of the opening line of "Anna Karenina" as a small piece of Tolstoy's literary theory used to get the ball rolling, i.e., "with happy families there is no story to tell, but unhappy families require a plot" And so it begins with the head of the household having an affair with the nanny and ends with AK throwing herself under a train. Tolstoys goal then seems to be to get the "stuff off his chest" so that there is no more story to tell. The *real* story is no story. In happiness the healing may have already taken place.
And speaking of trains, my personal favorite line from HB is "I take a train and another train to your house," which poignantly expresses much of the sadness of my twenties.
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Dan - 2004-08-05 11:49:21
Yeah, LitCritMom, I think I know what you mean about the real story being the end of the story in Tolstoy. It's the endings where one maybe feels that he's about happiness. In a way, there's the most sense of eternity at the end of the most frightening stories: MASTER AND MAN, and even the nearly unbearable IVAN ILYCH.
I could never shake off the feeling that ANNA KARENINA is to some extent preachy, punishing everyone for the transgression of infidelity. In a way, I'm sorry I ever read THE KREUTZER SONATA: it made me feel that Tolstoy was capable of being preachy to the point of craziness.
Still haven't read WAR AND PEACE...
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Paula - 2004-08-05 12:49:09
Still haven't read WAR AND PEACE...
Oy, talk about preachy!
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Paula - 2004-08-05 15:07:14
LitCritMom: excellent point, and one that I agree with.
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Bob - 2004-08-07 03:12:38
Let's see, Alex Chilton made me sad, riding around New Orleans one night with him... cuz he was bo-ring. Actually, that did not make me sad, and I didn't hold it against him;; I barely know who he is (which ain't his fault). More pertinently, (or less impertinently), I think you have to draw a distinction between songs that service depression and ones that evoke sadness. (Oh, and isn't bathos bleakness, and PATHOS patheticness, or at least more in line with "mournful"?) (In fact... I believe bathos equates to depression, and pathos to sadness.) I would say that music suited for depression moods, such as, say most of Public Image's 2nd Edition, helps one to wallow in that mood until one achieves self-pity, which can be a (healthy) form of emotional masturbation, cuz it lets the luv pour out (all over one), whereas "sad" songs pull at the heart-strings directly. And you certainly don't want to listen to the former type of music when you're not depressed, because music that ultimately makes you pity yourself for listening to it is something you gotta be in the mood for. Whereas sad songs you can be in any mood for, though the more you need a quick love outlet, the "better" listening to one is gonna feel. Interesting note about playing what would be depressing lyrics with "Celebrate Good Times" enthusiasm, though. Cuz speaking of an unmatched tone, it has always fascinated me (or at least since I got it myself) how people not only cannot see that "Norwegian Wood", right on the face of it, is about setting fire to a girl's flat, because she didn't sleep with him, but also that people won't even believe that that could be a second meaning, because it's all snuck by with such pretty, soothing singing, even though 'tis an elephant.
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Bob - 2004-08-07 14:52:01
Oh, and in other words, songs that service depression moods in the above manner turn bathos into pathos, whereas sad songs let one have a quick round of pathos straight away, if one is tempted. But the funny thing is, happy songs that are emotionally touching "bring off" the same biological drive, if you believe love is one.
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Bob - 2004-08-07 14:52:10
Oh, and in other words, songs that service depression moods in the above manner turn bathos into pathos, whereas sad songs let one have a quick round of pathos straight away, if one is tempted. But the funny thing is, happy songs that are emotionally touching "bring off" the same biological drive, if you believe love is one.
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Bob - 2004-08-07 14:54:21
Whoops, in the middle of a lightning storm.
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Dan - 2004-08-07 23:11:38
Gee, Bob, I certainly didn't find Chilton at all boring - he's a smart, opinionated guy. What year was your New Orleans ride with him?
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Bob - 2004-08-09 21:48:04
I was just being impertinent above, and the fact that I had no frame of reference, and didn't want to intrude with "So, WHO are you supposed to be?" would have made it pretty hard for him to be fascinating. (And at least he wasn't as boring as the dorky South African surfer, and the woman who had dragged Chilton along as her "date". I just didn't need to be there with that carload... especially considering that a car that I and my gal had delivered from Florida to said woman for a "friend" was such a piece of crap [it had broken down twice] that I'd wondered if I was smuggling drugs.) But bringing it back in the general direction of music lyrics, my soreheaded private take, under the circumstances, was: "It's Montgomery Clift!" Oh, and around '90-'92, maybe. I could just be Ali-esque and say: "He's a Saaaaad Man!!"... but that wasn't the problem, even then. (Though I would have been at a very minimum depressed that night, if I were him.)
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texas holdem - 2005-05-11 08:03:29
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