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I wombat - 2004-10-14 15:43:38
Ah yes, etiquette. It's hard in these egalitarian times, so much of etiquette is in support of power and class.
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Paula - 2004-10-14 16:14:50
I don't agree. Etiquette is about having the same rules for everyone. Etiquette is from the French word for "ticket"--meaning, a ticket to social ease. It is very much about making people comfortable, which doesn't suggest power or class struggles to me.
Can you give me some examples of what you mean?
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Missed Manners - 2004-10-14 16:36:24
It's permissible to brush your hair in an elevator if there's a wind machine, you're wearing a slinky off-the-shoulder top, and you're advertising a hair product full of space-age polymers that nonetheless are all organic and natural and make the boys coo. Otherwise, it's okay too - except you shouldn't pick old dead hair out of your brush while saying "eeewwww" and then releasing it from your fingers much as you would a squashed bug. This tends to make people uncomfortable.
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Paula - 2004-10-14 16:41:48
MM: noted. Ix-nay on the dead hair.
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Baby Party - 2004-10-14 17:15:51
1. Brushing your hair on the elevator or subway: not good. It's an enclosed space, and some people find hair unsanitary. I suggest the stairwell. 2. I think little kids should learn to hang on to the pole like everyone else, unless they are too young to stand, and need to be carried, in which case you should give your seat to the parent. 3. I know you forgot the third thing, but I saw a woman flossing her teeth on the train once. Horrifying! If that's what you were gonna ask...don't do that.
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Paula - 2004-10-14 17:21:34
Ah, that's not what I was going to ask, but it reminds me: at my place of work, in the ladies' room, there's a sign reminding us to wash our hands after using the bathroom. This strikes me as bizarre in that 1) This isn't a restaurant! 2) There isn't a sign in the men's room (I asked a man to check). I have never seen such a thing. My stars!
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pete - 2004-10-15 10:00:18
I personally wouldn't care if someone were brushing their hair on an elevator. And if they followed that by pulling the dead hair from the brush ans saying "eeewwww", I'd think that would be funny-as-hell!
What I don't understand, and can't stomach, is grown men who don't wash their hands after using the bathroom.
I've seen it nearly every day for the past ten years, and no... quickly running your hands under the water doesn't count.
At this point, when I wash my hands in a public men's room, I grab some paper towel first to turn on the faucets, then wash, leave the water running, and grab more towel to dry, turn the faucets off, and grab the door handle on the way out. If it's a door that opens out from the bathhroom, I use my foot.
I'd say about 70% of men don't wash their hands after using the bathroom, and that includes "#2". It's F-ing disgusting!
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I wombat - 2004-10-15 10:09:04
Well I certainly believe in politeness, and I don't even think there's enough of it, but when I think of etiquette, I think of some contested gestures, such as men holding doors for women, is it a kindness? or a claim of dominance? and I was thinking of haute etiquette of "high society" which seems more about exclusion and "the narcissum of small differences" than a mutual agreement among equals. This is all sort of beside the point, because it's not the stuff you were really talking about, but it's what I was thinking.
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Paula - 2004-10-15 10:16:15
such as men holding doors for women, is it a kindness? or a claim of dominance?
I guess only a man can answer that. Fellers, when you hold a door open, are you dominatin' me? Cuz it doesn't feel like it.
As for the high society thang, I am reminded of the famous (maybe apocryphal but till instructive) legend of Queen So-and-so whose foreign visitor began to drink out of his finger bowl at dinner. The Queen, not wanting to embarrass her guest, drank out of her finger bowl, too, and the rest of the dinner guests followed suit.
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Baby Party - 2004-10-15 10:29:59
I hold the door open for men. I think it's just courtesy to hold the door open for people if you are the first one there. I have never personally known a woman who was expressed offense at this gesture. I think of it as one of those "red herring" issues, spread by anti-feminists in the early 70s: "she glared at me when I held the door for her! those ladies are crazy!"
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Baby Party - 2004-10-15 10:37:09
As a native Southerner living in NYC for 7 years now, I have a confession: I am still sometimes secretly a little shocked when I'm on the subway and see a whole row of men sitting and a whole line of women standing in front of them. In the South, I suspect at least a few of those men would feel compelled by their mother's voices in their heads to give up their seats. I'm not going to try to justify my shock, and I'm not saying men should do this. But there is a part of me that finds such gestures charming, and their absence regrettable.
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Paula - 2004-10-15 10:45:22
Yes, BP, I think those gestures are charming, too, and not without purpose.
There are sex roles defined by nature. Men, as a group, are stronger than women physically. They can express this natural dominance by, for example, beating up women and behaving like jerks, or they can express it by giving them seats on the subway and holding open doors. I know which route I'd prefer.
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I wombat - 2004-10-15 10:56:44
I hold doors ,erratically, for both men and women, but I have been self-concious about the implications, I will try to chill out.
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Flasshe - 2004-10-15 12:19:29
Hey, I wasn't done with the peanut butter thread!
I'm not sure the brushing-the-hair-in-public thing bothers me all that much, except when the hair-brusher is driving. But I guess you NY people wouldn't know much about that, would you?
I will admit to flossing my teeth in semi-public. I'm somewhat OCD on the flossing matter and so sometimes can't resist doing it in the semi-privacy of my work cubicle. Others have stumbled onto me doing it at times (plus, it makes enough noise, flinging those little bits of food around with a tightened string, that I'm sure my nearby co-workers who can't see me nevertheless know what I am doing). I try to go into the restroom to do it, but sometimes that's not convenient. At least I never pull out the floss at a restaurant.
Which brings up another question: Clipping your fingernails in (semi)public - rude? That's another thing I sometimes do in my cubicle, and I know I'm not the only one. I can't type if my fingernails have more than a few days of growth.
I'm an equal opportunity door-holder-opener. It's just the thing to do.
But on etiquette in general: Rudeness is bad and I can't stand it. If etiquette helps cut down on rudeness, then more power to those maybe-outdated rules.
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Joe - 2004-10-15 13:50:15
1) Hair-brushing in public: inappropriate - perhaps a quick trip to the ladies' room before heading to your workspace?
2) Cubicle flossing/nail clipping - okay, since a cubicle is supposed to approximate an office, and an office is sort of semi-personal space the company grants in exchange for the work provided. Anything really noisy should probably be confined to the rest room or one's home
3) Etiquette = classism? Not to me. Etiquette is a system for treating other people kindly and gracefully. Its #1 rule is: rudeness is inappropriate, no matter the income to the person at whom the rudeness is directed.
4) Holding doors open - I hold the door for whoever is walking behind me, male or female. Any woman who takes that gesture in and of itself as aggressive or condescending has bigger issues, and any man who refuses to hold a door to express solidarity with the struggle of women, well, ditto.
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Editrix - 2004-10-16 09:17:16
I have to say -- and feel free to call me an overly fragile blossom -- big "eww" to the nail-clipping-in-public thing. An executive at my company used to clip her nails at her desk in an open-plan office environment, which thoroughly skeeved me out. I mean, the sound alone. And I was appalled when an ex-boyfriend would floss in the living room while carrying on a conversation with me -- I really didn't need to see the gray and slimy airborne remnants of the rack of ribs he'd consumed for dinner. Personal grooming should not be imposed on others.
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